Text | CCG Dialogue with Ambassador of Pakistan to China
July 11 , 2024
On July 11, 2024, Ambassador of Pakistan to China, Khalil Hashimi, along with Counselors Fareena Arshad and Muhammad Omar, Second Secretary Rabbia Nasir and Third Secretary Muriam Inayatullah Khan, visited the Center for China and Globalization (CCG). They engaged in discussions with CCG President Henry Huiyao Wang and Secretary General Mabel Lu Miao on topics of mutual interest.
Following the meeting, CCG’s Pakistani Research Fellow Zoon Ahmed Khan conducted an exclusive interview with Ambassador Hashimi. Below is the transcript of the conversation:
Zoon Ahmed:
Welcome ambassador to Center for China and Globalization (CCG). Ambassador of Pakistan, Khalil Hashmi is with us today. The CCG Ambassador’s Dialogue series is aimed at developing a deeper understanding of China’s relations with the world, and also how different countries can participate more actively in their regions and in global governance.
So, on that tune, we will start this interview. Ambassador Hashmi, you have been the ambassador to China for almost eight months now. You have also traveled extensively. Previously, you have been in Beijing as a diplomat from 2008 to 2010. You’ve also served in Geneva, in New York. So, my first question to you would be that how have these experiences as a diplomat serve to shape your perspective as the ambassador of Pakistan to China?
Khalil Hashmi:
Well, thanks, first of all, for having me. I’m often asked this question. So first of all, I think all these years in my diplomatic career, I would probably characterize it in one word: there has never been a dull moment. So, it’s been a quite intense career for me personally.
But I think there are two things which have been unique. And that is that I’ve had the opportunity (or) I was fortunate enough to traverse both the bilateral development diplomacy, which is posting in Denmark and Beijing, but also, a lot of opportunities to work in the multilateral settings, both in Geneva and New York. So in a sense, that helps you get a more grounded perspective on developments that take place either between countries when you’re on a bilateral post, but also on a number of transnational issues in more complex issues, which require reaching across, rising above your national positions and trying to forge agreements, which is, by the way, becoming more and more difficult these days.
Zoon Ahmed:
So, these experiences have also further enabled your capacity as an ambassador to see where perhaps even China and Pakistan today can work on global governance. And you’ve also traveled extensively within China in these last months, I believe, following your social media, which is also very active and well received. You’ve been going on different visits to also promote business collaborations, and these have also deepened your understanding of China today. So firstly, how has China changed from that China you saw in 2008 to 2010 up until now? And what further do you think these visits have further strengthened your capacity to see room (or) scope for deeper cooperation?
Khalil Hashmi:
I think China has changed in three fundamental ways: socially, environmentally and also economically, and all in positive ways. Socially, you look at some of the numbers. The big number everybody talks about is 800 million people lifted out of poverty. That, I think is a big number. It’s such a transformation, but it doesn’t really capture the full spectrum of what it means. But I think I would add one more element, and that is: this is something what China did inside its own country.
But what is often ignored is China’s contribution to the lifting of people’s standards outside China. And that was made possible by China’s very efficient organization of its labor force, which became so efficient and so productive and yet very affordable. So that means millions of kids, or two generations, if there was no China, millions of kids would not have enjoyed the toys that they enjoyed. Millions would not have had the opportunity to enjoy instant baby formula. These are some of those small things which are often ignored, but that’s the very concrete contribution by China by producing products, services and goods and making them accessible to millions and billions across the world at very affordable price. So that’s the social and economic dimension. But what I also saw was when I was last here, just another example, there was only one line between Beijing and Tianjin’s fast train, and this was talking about 2008. Sixteen years later, there are, you know, nearly 50,000 kilometers of fast train that is available in China. And again, at a very affordable price and very quality service. So that’s another indicator of the speed at which China has transformed itself.
Also on the technology side, I think. And that has had ramifications on the environment and the climate. What I saw at the time 2008 and 2010 was massive investments in research and development and investments in technology. Then now we see China actually has emerged as a technology leader. So, we see what is all also called as a green globalization, leader of the green globalization, producing new energy vehicles, new materials and all of these technologies and products which are environmentally very sound. And this is what the world needs. But the best part is that they are now available at scale and also at affordable prices. So, all in three dimensions, I think China has done exceedingly well.
Zoon Ahmed:
I mean, these are also very important aspects that today we talk about 300 million migrant labor force in China. How the mindset of the Chinese nation’s younger generation of the workforce has shifted because the entire country has become more accessible to them.
I think this is definitely something that a lot of experts are also studying. And when we talk about China’s development, of course, at times an outsider would say looking at big cities like Beijing, Shenzhen, Shanghai. But it’s really a lot of the smaller counties and villages and provinces that have quite transformed significantly and that can be an example.
I know that you recently also visited Xinjiang. You visited Tibet. Personally, I also think as a foreigner, when I visit these parts of the country, it is inspiring because you see people’s lives have changed very recently at times, their contributions to the development are becoming more transformative and they have retained their cultures. So, I want to know a little bit, how was your perception when you travel to Xinjiang and Tibet and maybe other such less of very big major cities, Metropolis, but with more cultural elements. How is your perception of that?
Khalil Hashmi:
Yeah, you’re absolutely right. I think this is again something where China has done wonder. It’s not just the Metropolises of China: Shanghai, Beijing, Shenzhen, which have really done well. They have developed some of the best public transport system, energy system, so on and so forth. But the real development that you also see equally is the small towns and it is the connectivity and the services that are available. So, I gave an interview in Xizang, for example. And it is an impressive feat that an area which is more than one point six million square kilometers and where the population is less than 3.5 million. And to make sure that, you know, people have the means to travel, which is the highways, world-class highways, world-class roads. But the best part is that almost all the villages, they have electricity, they have running water, and what I liked most was that all of them have 5G.
Zoon: Wow.
Khalil Hashmi:
So this is just to illustrate, but this is Nyingchi (林芝市) where I went. This is a smaller city in Xizang. But I went also to Kashi, which is probably the second largest city. But this is a city which impressed me the most because of its heritage, its ancient connections and its vibrant culture. Also, what I saw was a huge transformation in the last 10-15 years. When I was here last, I couldn’t go to Kashi, but I went to Urumchi. So, this time I went to Urumchi also. It’s a complete transformation of the landscape of the city, but not just the city, you see the people, vibrant economy, the cultural scene. So, this is the western regions of China. But I went to central region. I went to smaller cities. I have been to Pingdingshan (平顶山) in Henan province. I’ve been to Weifang(潍坊), Shouguang(寿光) in Shandong province, and it’s the same story.
So, you see that standards of lives of people, ordinary people, have improved. So, you know, no matter where you live, you have now access to world-class, high-quality infrastructure. You have services and access to quality education, health. So, all of these things, they point to the very fact that China is walking the talk when it comes to development in sustainable development and making sure that it is indeed a people centered development.
And then that’s where 800 million people as a number, it makes it seem as a part of China as a monolith. But really those stories are about ordinary people also striving, being ambitious. And that’s where we also come to Kashgar, (which) is also a very important cultural link between China and Pakistan. There are a lot of Pakistani businessmen in Kashgar, and this is where we can come to the next aspect that’s so important. And central Pakistan is an “Iron brother” to China. It is the closest partnership really over generations. When we talk about China Pakistan relations, obviously the BRI and China Pakistan Economic Corridor is the flagship project. Where do you think CEPC stand today? How has the phase 1 been and what’s the next step?
Khalil Hashmi:
Yes, CPEC is now entered into what we call the second phase. So having completed the first decade of a successful foundation of economic growth. Why I say that is because you know in the last 10 years, there was a lot of focus, a lot of investments went into the corridor on two major sectors. There was infrastructure, where there was transport or other connectivity infrastructure, and the second was energy. These are the two lifelines of any economy, which any country would want to grow or need these two lifelines.
Having laid that foundation, now we are focused more on industrial cooperation. This is not to suggest that we have just now looked away from infrastructure and energy, that would remain there, but there is more and more focus on industrial cooperation, which means more trade and investment cooperation, which means more, as far as I am concerned and Pakistan Embassy in Beijing is concerned, to encourage more and more Chinese investors. And we have identified 13 sectors of the economy we would like, and we are encouraging and intensely engaged with various Chinese companies, corporations, private, state owned to invest in those sectors. And those sectors are essentially export-oriented. So, we are very focused on enhancing our productive capacity, bringing in Chinese capital, Chinese technology, Chinese management and other experiences to enhance our productive capacity, our export surplus. So, it’s very focused investment led export growth. So that’s the area for focus under the overall rubric of industrial cooperation.
So we are, at the same time, we’re also focused on specific corridors. So our two countries, when the Prime Minister visited last month, we agreed to operationalize five corridors: the corridor of growth, livelihoods, innovation, green development, and inclusivity. And the inclusivity means expanding the China Pakistan Economic Corridor to third countries.
All in all, I think with the prime minister’s visit, both countries have been able to inject a very healthy momentum in not only overall bilateral relations, but I would say that this momentum is very visible on the trade and investment part. But also, we are very focused on the industrial infrastructure and also the traditional infrastructure, which is energy. But the focus is shifting now on energy. When it comes to energy, we’re more focused on renewables energy, green energy. So, whether it is solar, wind, hydro, this is the area of focus. When it comes to transport, we are still a developing country, so we are more focused on developing transport, railway, highways, but also, public transport. And then of course, there are areas which is education and health. I would say that there is not a single area or a sector that we have missed. So it is, as I said in the beginning, it continues to be a diplomatic carrier where there’s never a dull moment.
Zoon Ahmed:
Also, it’s interesting that the way China approaches social, economic realities and challenges and also the kinds of challenges that China has faced in recent decades are relatable for many countries in the world, including Pakistan. And we are also seeking to have more people centric development. As you mentioned, that’s an important dimension also in the cooperation. So, can you also talk a bit more about why agriculture is a major focus? What kind of social economic impact better agricultural cooperation can have other CSR (corporate social responsibility) efforts that are important to Pakistan by Chinese companies. To what extent is the existing corporation also having the kind of impact that can be considered people centered.
Khalil Hashmi:
Yes, of course, as we know, Pakistan is a large country, 5th largest by population, but it is also a very important agriculture country. Almost two third of our GDP is directly or indirectly related to agriculture. Within agriculture, we have livestock and other areas. A lot of labor force is also engaged. So, it is by default agricultures in area which is very much people centered and oriented. The collaboration between Pakistan and China in the agricultural area has been robust, but we just signed another MoU (Memorandum of Understanding). There are different dimensions. One is the education and research area where when the prime was here, he spoke and also talked about sending 1,000 students, both girls and boys, to China to learn more about agriculture, more on the applied side of agriculture, which is new technology but it is related to seed development, whether it is about drip irrigation, because we are more and more, like many other countries, becoming a water stressed country in different parts. So, we need to learn new technologies, but also, on enhancing productivity of different crops, vegetables, fruits, livestock. One is the educational research part. The other one is the technology, the applied side of it. So, we have a number of students already here doing Masters, PhD, post-Doc, including in the area of agriculture. And then there is an ongoing collaboration between research institute whether it is seeds or whether it is a different crop, so that part is also going on.
Third piece of it is the investment and business part of it. In the last year, for example, we concluded what is called sanitary and phytosanitary protocols. These are measures to make sure that food related products or agriculture products or livestock related products, when they are traded, when they are exported or imported, they meet a minimum level of safety standards. So, there is a process of registration and all of that.
Last year, we included five, for example, in the area of meat, beef, chilies, cherries, milk-based products and animal hides. We are working on seven or eight more, including on corn, rice, sesame seeds. So, we have seen a surge in exports, agriculture exports from Pakistan, and it’s just the beginning. You would see maybe over time, in over 2,3 years’ time, more and more agricultural products and goods coming to China. And this is made possible by the free trade agreement that Pakistan and China have. Of course, more than 90% products are zero-rated. And this for our products, agriculture, industrial and others, China, but also it is reciprocal.
All in all, I think agriculture, like in other areas: this is an area where we have a lot of focus right now also. A lot of agriculture and advanced machinery that China has produced, techniques that China has developed, the management practices, the research and knowledge products that China has developed. So, we are very intensely engaged under the China Pakistan and Economic Corridor, but separately as well at institutional level, at enterprise level and at students’ level.
Zoon Ahmed:
It is very broad and multifaceted. I also recall that during COVID, obviously, a lot of the people-to-people engagement, a lot of business delegations that would otherwise be visiting each other’s countries between China and Pakistan weren’t able to. But a lot of seminars are still happening, especially focused on agriculture, very focused ones. And we see that we are mutually reaping the benefits of investment.
Coming to the next, we know that people to people is just very people to people, cultural understanding about each other. About 30,000 Pakistani students at some point, the highest number was studying in Chinese universities. We also know that Pakistan has a lot of potential as a tourist destination. We know that there’s more chance for people-to-people interaction engagement. So, your thoughts on what is the stage that we are at right now in terms of people-to-people engagement and what can it contribute to the relationship further, to add further momentum to the effort so far?
Khalil Hashmi:
I think this is an extremely important work stream and also an important tool for people-to-people exchanges to really for the two people. Of course, we have a unique and a very deep-rooted friendship between our governments, between our institutions and also among our people. But as we know, nothing is taken for granted. This is something which you and us as the embassy and other parts of the government on both sides. This is an ongoing work. So, we, because every, other years, there are students who are coming from primary school to high schools and then there are new people, new ideas. So, it is important. China, as I mentioned earlier, 15-16 years ago and now it has made yet another leap of development which is very remarkable. So, there are a lot of people who may not have yet had the opportunity to visit China. For students, for researchers, for general travelers, especially young people, we are actually planning to start probably exchanges at school level and college level because that’s the level where a lot of people develop their memories.
Zoon Ahmed:
And curiosity for the world.
Khalil Hashmi:
Yes. But also, I think a lot of Pakistanis now are traveling within the country. They are going to different parts of the world as well. But I think this is something, this is an area where we are trying to pay a lot of attention to encourage Pakistanis that there are so many places in China to visit, as I said, and then media interviewed, asked me, what are your first impressions of Xizang? And I said, without even batting an eye, that this is literally heaven on earth. And Xinjiang, you go gorgeous places. So, China is so diverse in north, south, east, west and it’s such a friendly country. So, more and more Pakistanis need to come. Other than students, of course, government officials and enterprises, business people, but it is the tourist part that we would like, and we are trying to invest a lot of our effort and time to encourage group tourists to Pakistan. Especially in our northern areas. So, this is a working progress. We are also, you know, working, for example, this year we have taken two initiatives.
We organized, and this is already done, two weeks Pakistan food festival in Chengdu. The reason was Sichuan is famous for spicy food. What is less known probably in China is that we also eat a lot of spicy food. So, it was a natural place to pick. We did it for two weeks last month in Chengdu, partnering with the local hotel and the feedback is very, very positive. So, we plan to make it as an annual event.
The second thing we are trying and working on is a fashion show. So, blending Pakistani and Chinese fashion or costumes. So, this is something we have planned for end of October, early November in Shanghai on the sidelines of the International Fashion Expo.
But we are also planning to organize another trip of group tourists from China to Pakistan so that they go and develop the packages because as we have seen, there are a lot of countries, tourists are coming into China and a lot of Chinese tourists are going outside. So, why not in a friendly country like Pakistan? So, that’s something that is very much on our mind, and we spend a lot of effort trying to create more avenues.
Zoon Ahmed:
I know Pakistani food is very popular all over China. So, I’m thinking, I hope next time the Embassy can also consider this festival in Beijing. Beijing has a major fan base of Pakistani food. And yes, tourism, I mean, people know about it, but I think gradually when the Chinese style of tourism can be quite different from Westerners. So, hopefully, in the next few years we can see more, not just interest but two-way flow. Now, let’s come to, I mean, the bilateral relations obviously going in a positive direction. They are very multifaceted, engaging different parts of the communities on people on both sides.
China and Pakistan also work very closely when we come to the region, on regional cooperation. We also often mention that CPEC is obviously bilateral, but the vision is to deepen regional connectivity. And multilateral institutions fora are also very important to Pakistan. So, can you briefly talk a bit about what is the regional vision for CPEC and how perhaps regional organizations such as the SCO (Shanghai Cooperation Organization), for example, can play an important role in Pakistan’s vision for its urban region?
Khalil Hashmi:
So, when it comes to the inclusivity part of the corridor that I just talked about (that) our two countries are ready to pursue, that essentially is by expanding the China-Pakistan Economic Corridor to the neighborhood, and also having third parties or third countries participate in the corridor (and) the projects. So, it is both ways. It is inward and outward. Outward meaning expanding the scope of the corridor, for example, first and foremost to Afghanistan. So, I think we are trying to invest a lot of effort to create the conditions for that. There is some effort that has gone into it. There are some pieces which are there. But I think it would require some more efforts on the part of both Pakistan and Afghanistan to really cap the potential that exists. And then gradually over time also to take it further beyond Afghanistan. So, that remains a work in progress.
The other one is the inward part and that is the Regional Tax Offices (RTOs) Pakistan and China agreed during the Prime Minister’s visit. We have agreed on modalities on how to engage third countries who are interested in investing in Pakistan in the corridor and different projects. So, we have agreed on that modalities and that’s also a platform to accelerate the development and connectivity, projects that both Pakistan and China have started, especially in Pakistan. So, all in all, I think the regional vision continues to be peace and development. But for any country and for that matter, a large country like Pakistan also requires a peaceful neighborhood to be able to pursue its own development priorities. Unfortunately, it’s a very complex and a very tough neighborhood where Pakistan finds itself.
So, there is a lot of the geopolitical tensions or developments inevitably impact the policy framework or some of the priorities that we would like to pursue. And we have seen in terms of planned sabotage and attacks on CEPC. We have seen, these are some of the attacks where unfortunately they led to the death of our Chinese friends in Pakistan. But we know that which countries have publicly expressed opposition to the China-Pakistan economic corridor. And the forces that are bent upon driving a wedge. But we are very mindful, and our two countries are very determined to pursue this regional vision of peace and development. This vision is in complete alignment with BRI or the Global Development Initiative. And ultimately what President Xi Jinping says, developing a community of shared future. So, that is a very broad vision, but this vision of regional development gels very well with that larger vision of building a community of shared future.
Zoon Ahmed:
I mean, being more pragmatic generally in terms of our policies. And it’s clear, obviously, there’s, we know that the ASEAN region flourished because of the existence of the organization. There are multiple examples in different parts of the world, EU, the African Union. So, there seems to be a lot of potential but also challenges.Do you think the SCO is built to eventually create that space for more pragmatism, for that recognition that regions really prosper and perish together and we have the capacity to prosper together? Do you think that given that this time, this would be the conclusion of this summit, there is a focus on economic cooperation, investment in each other’s countries, is that opening doors to that ideal way forward?
Khalil Hashmi:
Well, in terms of potential, I think there is no doubt and there are no two opinions. The SCO as an organization has also continued to evolve from a security-centric organization when it was founded back 23 years ago. There is an increasing focus on connectivity, infrastructure, economic development, investment, trade.
So, potential does exist, but I think SCO also exists in the larger geopolitical environment where some of the members you would find being impacted by the pull and push factors and their relations with one major power or the other. So, that sometimes becomes a factor as to whether the full potential of the vision or the full potential of the resources and opportunities that exist within the SCO region can be leveraged (or/and) tapped fully or not. But overall, I think the trajectory of the Shanghai Cooperation Organization, I would say, that it plays a very stabilizing role generally in a world where there is a lot of turmoil and a lot of tension.
Zoon Ahmed:
And uncertainty.
Khalil Hashmi:
So, it’s an organization which lends a lot of stability, predictability. It may not sound like a major engine of, driver of growth, but it is playing its part and it occupies an important space in the overall geography of the world.
Zoon Ahmed:
And it is also expanding. So, there is an attractiveness to it.
Let’s come on the global front. Pakistan has historically played a very important role in various international platforms, including the UN system. We were central during our chairmanship as G77 for the loss and damage fund, which was historic.
In global governance, we are increasingly talking about the increasing importance of the role of important middle powers, which Pakistan is, and also the global south, which Pakistan can identify with. What is Pakistan’s role today? How can we as a country further promote improved global governance?
Khalil Hashmi:
Pakistan, I think, has a solid track record and very strong credentials in the last 75 years when it comes to shaping the constituents of various international institutions whether it is the discourse, or whether it is the policies, or whether it is developing various institutions.
So, right now, I think Pakistan continues to maintain that tradition. You just mentioned one example of how Pakistan was able to marshal and first secure a consensus among developing countries, the group of 77 (G77) in China. Which, by the way, in this fractious world in itself is a feat to have a common position. And then to also go in a space where you have to negotiate with some of the very powerful countries, and then to be able to get an agreement. So, that speaks to the strength and also the success of Pakistani diplomacy under very difficult conditions.
But there are several other examples where we have made meaningful impact. So, right now, there are conversations going on in New York, for example, in the lead up to the Summit of the Future, as to what type of Security Council or what type of United Nations we want. So, the Security Council reform, one aspect of the reform is its working methods. Another one is the representation of small countries and big countries. Another is the categories of membership. Most of our friends would have us believe that it is about the Security Council permanent membership, but that’s just one piece of the reform effort that we are taking. And on each piece, we have concrete proposals that we have advanced in combination with. We are a very active member of the Uniting for Consensus, UFC, which advocates the representation of small and medium countries. And definitely, this grouping has very clearly articulated that by adding additional permanent members, we are adding to the gridlock, actually. So, we have seen in the last 10-15 years, the Security Council is almost dysfunctional. So, adding the big guys, more big guys on a permanent basis without any accountability, this is the lesson that we have learned in the past 75 years, that there shouldn’t be no free privileges. There has to be accountability that countries, they have to come back to the general membership of a given organization, present their performance, and see how they have done, and then through that process, a very democratic process if the membership deems it fit that they qualify and they occupy that high seat. So, this is another example, but I wanted to also say that during these discussions, there is another piece to it, and that’s on the development side.
We know the Sustainable Development Goals were agreed almost 10 years ago. So, we are fast reaching. Six years are left. And that was the plan in 2015 when they were agreed that by 2030, we need to achieve these goals and a vision. Unfortunately, less than 15% of the funding that is required, initially it was calculated at around $2 trillion with the pandemic and with the problems in the global economy, and especially the very negative impact on developing countries in terms of their fiscal space being squeezed and their liquidity also being washed away because of the aftereffects of the pandemic.
So, one is the funding gap between what is required and what is available. That has increased. But also, the amount required to achieve these goals, because of some of these factors, has gone from 2 to probably over $4 trillion. But there is very little money, almost 15% of it, which is available. So, I think we are moving away from that vision, if we look at it realistically speaking. Within this piece also lies the climate piece, the climate action. So, what is required on the mitigation front and on the adaptation front (for the) developing countries are very clear, but it is also clear that what is required in terms of climate finance is very clear, but what is available is very little. So, I think the clock is ticking, whether it is on the sustainable development area, whether it is climate action. So, the aspirations of the developing countries, they are not finding the resonance and the attention that is needed. But I think where we are sitting in China, China has come in a big way through its Belt and Road Initiative, through its global development initiative. China has injected a lot of liquidity, funds, projects, and that has, in my way, in my view, helped achieve whatever modest progress that we have made on the achievement of sustainable development goals.
But I think for developing countries, there is another big issue that hasn’t yet been addressed in any meaningful way, and that’s the very heavy debt burden that they have acquired. And much of it is not because of their own doing, it is because there (are) circumstances and developments beyond their control. To give you one example, during the pandemic, when developed countries, for example, the United States or European Union, they unleashed huge fiscal stimulus packages, they could afford it. They did it to the tune of more than $4 trillion together, which created a wave of inflation. And then to tame the inflation, interest rates had to be jacked up. All of it had so much implications for developing countries because they ran out of liquidity, their fiscal space got squeezed, and their debt burdens rose.
So, this is, you know, many developing countries are still going through that shock. And, but, Pakistan, again, has articulated very clearly and put on the UN agenda, and the United Nations General Assembly is probably the largest international platform. The aspirations and the concerns of the developing countries, and one of the major proposal is that we have been making consistently is that time is way past now to reform the international financial architecture where these decisions on how public finance and how these larger issues of sustainable development, climate change, and poverty alleviation, health, these goals, they can only be achieved if we change the way the structures of the international financial architecture are built.
They need to be revisited, but more importantly, not just the structures, but also the policies.
Zoon Ahmed:
I have so many questions based on this. Number one, what barriers exist? What do you think Pakistan and other countries can do further to increase the level of accountability of commitment on the part of countries that need to give more for us to achieve these goals?
Khalil Hashmi:
I think what is required is more democratization in these international financial institutions. For example, the way that currently the IMF and World Bank are structured, you have voting procedure and process, where the developing countries, because of their weaker economic position, their weight doesn’t carry the same weight as the others. It doesn’t carry the universal franchise which is available in the United Nations: one country, one vote. So, this is not the same case in whether it is World Bank or IMF or, for that matter, the regional multilateral development banks.
But there is another piece to it, which is when we say international financial institutions, there are commercial banks, private banks, and they are huge, and they lend a lot in the last 25 years. The public financing for public projects volume and the envelope of these financing has gone down considerably in the past 25 years. So, many developing countries have been obliged to seek funding from these commercial banks at a much higher interest rate. And that has added to their cumulative debt burden. So, this is another piece to it. What we are saying is that there has to be some democratic or democratic principles and spirit in these institutions, some sort of accountability, some sort of transparency as to how they are pursuing their policy and designing their policies. For example, also the impact of the policies that, some of the policies that IMF pursues in terms of stabilization in the name of stabilization or in the name of growth. So, the policies, the composition, the CMB processes, all of these in the international financial architecture need to be revisited.
These are challenges that this generation has faced. These challenges have worsened, really. But we are looking at potential solutions. Like you also mentioned, there is a greater voice of the Global South today. It’s a question of how well it can be mobilized. There is initiative, as you also mentioned.
And then you have BRI, you have GDI, you have some mechanisms entering in this field to create solutions. What do you think the role of youth, of nurturing a younger generation to be more empathizing, to be more creative with solutions is? For example, we at CCG also have the Global Young Leaders Dialogue. We also received a letter from Prime Minister Shahbaz Sharif to encourage the global youth. How do you see the role and how can it be facilitated of young people to make sure we address these issues in the next years?
I think youth is quite vital to the discourse that we have nationally, regionally, or internationally. And across the range of issues, whether it is about development, which means livelihoods, jobs, wages, (or) whether it is on the security front. So, how do we deal with these security issues? One of them is, for example, terrorism or counterterrorism. Drugs, many of these issues are transnational in nature. So, it’s not necessarily confined in a geographic space.
Then how do we look at some of the technology related issues? There are more and more, while there are benefits such as in transport, in media, in economy. There is a lot of ease with which you can do, go about your life on a daily basis, thanks to technology. But there is a downside to it, which is, we are seeing privacy data related issues being thrown up.
We see AI coming and issues of impersonation or, if your data is lost. So, there is so much of your footprint available, digital footprint that is available, but how do you make sure that it remains in responsible hands? So, all of these issues, young people are central to this discourse, because at the end of the day, the next 25 or the next generation, it is these people who are going to not only shape, but also be, if they don’t shape it well, they are going to be the net recipients of the negative effects, if they shape it well. But I think as they say, they will have to exert themselves into these debates and discourse. A lot of institutions are providing that opportunity and platforms like the CCG itself, there are many others also. So, I think by articulating, by amplifying their voices, their concerns, but also their aspirations, that’s one, but also developing some of those solutions. So, it’s the narrative part, but also the solution part, but also the empowerment part, which is the youth, they need to get their act together and going to aspire for public positions where decision making is done in leadership positions, whether in the corporate, public sector or private sector, also on in the intelligentsia in academic, but in as public intellectual also. So, there are different ways to influence and shape not just the discourse, but also the policies and the programs. So, youth is absolutely essential. And I think it is even more crucial for a country like Pakistan, where 60% of its 240 million people are less than 30 years old.
Zoon Ahmed:
One of the youngest, very dynamic country in that sense. Ambassador, we have discussed your travels, the bilateral relations, their importance and Pakistan’s increasing role in the region and the world. It’s hard to conclude this interview. There’s so much more that we would like to ask you. But really, based on your vantage point, where do you see in the next 10 years China Pakistan relations, ideally? Your predictions and your hopes for this. Very important one.
Khalil Hashmi:
I would like to note, I see a number of my colleagues working with me. As you know, there would be intense competition to become an ambassador to China.
Zoon Ahmed:
Oh, that’s a good thing!
Khalil Hashmi:
But I see a very positive trajectory of Pakistan-China relations. Why I say that is because we have a very solid foundation for that politically, diplomatically, economically, (and) strategically. So, we have that foundation. In 10 years, I would like to see our trade volume crossing hundred billion dollars. It is doable, but we require a lot of hard work to achieve that. I would like to have that same figure of the foreign direct investment from China to Pakistan, the same figure. Hundred billion reaching that level. I would also want at least 100,000 Pakistani tourists coming in 10 years’ time reaching and coming to China and saying going to Pakistan. So, a lot of things around hundred Mark, the figure of hundred, that’s what I would like to see. I think we have a lot of young leaders coming up in Pakistan also, and also equally in China. It would be my endeavor also to plant the seeds where the youth, both in China and Pakistan, they are able to or create the opportunities and the enabling conditions whereby then they use these, some of the platforms to even solidify and deepen our very unique and special relationship and friendship between Pakistan and China.
Zoon Ahmed:
And hope they have the same passion and ambition for a better world that you have. With that, I hope that we continue our engagement. Pakistan is a very important partner for CCG as well. And we hope that we can play our role in further deepening the importance of young people’s representation, but also North-South dialogue and on global governance with you and Pakistan. Thank you so much. Thank you for the opportunity. Thank you.
Note: The above text is the output of transcribing from an audio recording. It is posted as a reference for the discussion.
